S1 Ep4: Vish Amin, Co-Founder of Until Podcast Transcript

Chris: Have you ever wondered how the businesses you know and love have evolved? What inspired the founders to create them, what chances do they take, and what mistakes they make along the way?

Hi, I’m Chris, the CEO of Uncommon, a company that creates exceptional spaces for work. In each episode of Alive With Possibilities, I get to sit down with a different business leader whom I admire and discuss the journey they’ve been on.

Joining me for this episode is Vish Amin. To me, Vish is firstly, a good friend, he’s also a proud vegan, and a seed investor in multiple businesses.

In 2020, Vish co-founded Until, a health and wellness venture that opened its first site in Soho, followed by Liverpool Street, and was shortly opened in Marylebone.

So, Vish, can you talk to me about your background and kind of what inspired you and what led you to where you are today?

Vish: Born and raised in London, starting my entrepreneurial career on the playground, selling, I don’t know if you remember Chris — those sugar sticks nice to kids around me until the teachers caught on.

Chris: What margin were you making on those?

Vish: I bought them for 2p … I mean, I didn’t really buy them, my parents owned a corner shop, so I kind of borrowed them in the morning, and they start off at 10p instead of 2p. And as the supply declined, I sold one for £2 once and that was like the biggest win. So, pretty decent.

Much easier margins in that business than in the business I’m in today. That’s where it all began, if I’m honest. As a good Indian boy, we were always told that you either became a doctor or a dentist or a lawyer. If I’m honest, none of those things really appealed to me, and so I decided that I wanted to become a banker.

Went through three years of not doing many lectures, but having a good time. Realised that banking wasn’t necessarily my calling. Ended up moving to New York after uni, more to tell people I was moving to New York than actually any real knowledge of the kind of healthcare startup that I was joining.

Ended up going on a wild four-year ride where I went from the furniture builder in the team, to effectively the global CFO. Built that business from 0 to 400 people working in the health insurance industry, and for some reason, decided to move back to London.

Joined McKinsey for my sins, a strategy consulting firm. Spent 10 years in consulting and I joined a business called ?What If!. I Went there to learn marketing. What I really learned was that I’m not a very good marketer.

Thankfully, I met my business partner or one of the co-founders of Until there. And then set about going and building a consulting firm in the purpose space, really helping big organisations figure out why they exist in the world, and started investing in startups.

Finally, at business fourzero, I was able to kind of invest in my health and wellness for the first time. That’s where I caught the bug, and wanted to build something in health and wellness, and here I am now, CEO of a health wellbeing business called Until.

Chris: That’s a very eclectic group of businesses that you’ve actually been part of. Which of those experiences then do you think you pulled on maybe more for the businesses that you’ve started since?

Vish: The most formative years of my career were obviously the startup world initially, and then actually, whilst McKinsey was a fantastic place to learn, I think the innovation firm, ‘?What If!’, is where I really learn more about myself.

I think at McKinsey, I’d become very good at keeping life here and keeping work here, and keeping a gap in between. Whereas, my experience of ‘?What If!’ told me that really, you do your best work, you do your best thinking when those things align, and when you do them together.

And I think that experience, I went into that consulting firm with a pretty big ego going, well, I’m a McKinsey consultant and I joined the strategy practice. And I remember feeling like I was going to show them what strategy really was.

I remember day seven of my time there, the guy who had hired me got fired, and I ended up being thrown back into the inventing practice, which was probably the best job title I had, lead inventor.

But quite quickly, realising I was totally out of my depth. I was working on a project for a big hotel brand, building restaurant and bar propositions, and I remember the director on the project going, “Can you go away and write some propositions?”

I went away and used my McKinsey training to write some pretty vanilla descriptions, and I remember the look on her face was of disgust. It was a bit like, “What is this?”

Instantly, I realised that this wasn’t gonna be quite as plain sailing as I’d expected going in. But the good news was that the first project is where I met Alex, who’s the co-founder of Until, and he took me under his wing at that point, and probably saved me, got me through that first eight weeks.

Chris: Tell us a little bit more about ‘?What If!’, what did it actually do?

Vish: So, ‘?What If!’ was probably one of the best consultancy firms in the world at helping organisations identify insights around their customers. And so, at the time, a lot of corporates were realising that startups were growing and that they had to operate differently.

Innovation was the buzzword, but corporations are not usually known to be fantastic at innovating. And so, they’d bring in ‘?What If!’. ‘?What If!’ would go and speak to their customers and identify the space for a product, and then would go away and design and build that product.

The reason I got brought in there was to help them take those ideas and turn them into commercially viable businesses, and get the CFOs and the CEOs to sign them off and write the check to go and build them.

It was an amazing place to learn how to be an entrepreneur. It was an amazing place to go and learn how to not fall into the standard way of thinking, how to step out of the river of thinking that stops people building different businesses.

Chris: I mean, it sounds like a pretty amazing kind of test bed and a way to learn for what is then followed. And Until as a business, do you want to explain what that does? How has that been born? Tell us the Until story.

Vish: The consulting firm we started after ‘?What If!’ was all about purpose and culture. I think one of my realisations while I was there was that my purpose was all about unlocking potential in people.

The way I had ended up doing that was investing in startups or starting little businesses, whether that was start a barbershop or backing a family member to launch a bridge financing company.

And I think I started personal training for the first time in my life. It was transformative in many ways. Yes, it got me a bit healthier physically, but the mental impact was huge, and it was that kind of experience that made me go more people should have the opportunity to do this.

You shouldn’t have to be earning a certain amount of money or have a certain amount of flexibility before you can access that market. And I met a brilliant personal trainer, Dan, who’s again, one of our co-founders. And in the spirit of unlocking his potential, I wanted to build a business with him.

And again, that’s when Alex called me. Alex was living in Bordeaux and he was keen to move out to London. And we started talking about what an opportunity would look like. And Until I was born from seeing really two big things.

One is if you look at the health and wellness industry, it’s been a very fragmented market. You go to see a PT in a gym, you’ll see a physio in a physio location, a psychotherapist in a therapy space. And actually, those three things need to live much more together, a much more integrated solution. If there’s a consumer, you’re gonna get the best outcome.

And then one of the most important things is when I spoke to Dan and when I spoke to more practitioners, you realise that these guys are life-changers. They changed my life, they changed people’s lives every single day, and they’re paid appallingly, they do not get the share of value that they wanted.

And so, we took those two insights and launched a business as effectively a platform to help these guys build their own businesses. Get away from thinking about, “Oh I have to build my own real estate. I have to build my own space in order for me to finally earn a living that allows me to live in a city like London.”

Until was born out of saying, “Well, let us help you build those businesses.” And so, that’s why we started it.

Chris: The moment I saw Until really work was that I thought around, well, if you are a PTE, let’s keep using them as an example. If they want to graduate from a bigger brand, they effectively have nowhere else to go but what is a very tertiary or kind of difficult step to make unless they open their own gym.

And that was kind of the thing that I’ve seen over the years. And then obviously, I’ve not made the leap of starting a business called Until. It was that moment going, “Of course, this is such a logical thing to be doing.” And how many of them do you have right now?

Vish: So, we’ve got 260 members across 35 disciplines. We’ve got an incredible community, and they currently operate across Soho, Liverpool Street. We’re about to launch our third location in Marylebone, and so, we’re expecting to have close to 6 to 700 practitioners by the end of the year.

Chris: And you’re going to keep adding sites as you kind of go through the next kind of few years? Is that the plan?

Vish: The short-term ambition is build an infrastructure across London, probably 8 to 10 locations, all in key transport hubs, and then take it internationally.

I mean, I don’t know if I imagine that I’d ever go back to the States, but clearly, the product we’re building in the U.S. market is a huge opportunity, and that’s what’s on the cards.

If I’m honest, Chris, the way I see it is this is the way this industry will work in the future. Practitioners will be building their own brands. The joys of social media have meant that’s more possible than ever before.

The Until business model will exist in every major city globally. I hope they’re all on Untils, but let’s see how that all pans out.

Chris: You’ve already discussed a bit about your personal inspiration. Has there been anyone along your kind of journey arc that you’ve kind of seen that’s kind of prompted you to get into this?

Vish: I was super fortunate … I mean it would’ve been equally as easy for me to have left university and like a lot of my friends, tried to get a traditional place in a big corporate graduate program. It was a factor of just luck that I ended up in the U.S.

And then it has been a series of non-traditional paths, like was in a good role in the U.S. And for a lot of people, once you go to the U.S., you don’t come back. And so, coming back was a big step. Joining McKinsey, the pinnacle of the consulting space, why would you then join another consulting firm?

And I’ve always kind of challenged the normal track and taken a detour. I’d love to say it was super calculated, super intentional, but it’s kind of opportunities, just follow the opportunities versus having a strategic plan to become an entrepreneur.

Chris: You are sitting back and if you had a chat with a 21-year-old version of you, would it stop caring about that?

Vish: I think the advice I’d give myself at 21 is just to enjoy the journey more. I probably spent way too much time thinking about what’s next, what’s next, what’s next?

And I feel like I didn’t enjoy and appreciate the journey. I wouldn’t change any of it other than just my mindset and how I went through those moments, because I think each of those moments, good and bad, are the reason that I got to where I am.

Chris: It’s always a very, very positive thing not having regrets because of the fact you are happy where you are now. And yeah, that’s an amazing thing to be able to say.

You must have had a lot of challenges over this kind of time period. What would you say your biggest challenge has been?

Vish: I think my biggest challenge was constantly taking the untrodden path, constantly pushing myself to try something new or go against the grain, because I spent most of my time going, “Okay, well, you’re on a path, follow it, get to where you wanna get to.”

And then these things would pop up and they’d pull me in a different direction. And so, making those choices was probably the biggest challenge. Other than that, I think work-life balance, I think it gets talked about a lot.

It’s interesting you’re talking about what other people think. The biggest challenge I get even up until now, is that life needs balance. You should spend less time working. My parents are like, “We worked hard so you wouldn’t have to.” My friends are like, “You have to learn to switch off.”

And I think just hearing that again and again and again over 10 years, you really start to question your judgement. You really start to ask yourself, “Am I doing the right thing?” And that was hard. That was hard.

And I think now, the world’s kind of done a full circle. Back in the day, it was all about working hard and oh, I don’t sleep, I do 120 hours a week. And then we’ve kind of been through this journey where it’s all about balance and I think at the moment, people are sharing how much they sleep and how much they rest, and how they recover.

But I think there is this kind of new energy going, “Well, look, work-life balance is subjective, it’s personal, it’s dependent on an individual’s interest and goals.” And I’m now not unapologetic about it. I enjoy work.

I was listening to a podcast with Alex Hormozi the other day, and he works and watches Netflix, and that’s okay. That’s his decision and that’s what makes him happy. And I think I’m really lucky I get to enjoy what I do. I surround myself with people that I want to work with.

And so, it’s not work. It’s not work if you enjoy it. I don’t think you can ever be as successful as your potential without loving what you do.

Chris: How do you switch off?

Vish: I probably don’t if I’m honest, Chris. I mean, if you’re talking to my other half, she’d say to you, I play stupid games on my mobile. Like when I need to just distract myself, I’ll jump on, and I try to avoid the Candy Crush style games.

But the one thing I do to switch off is train. I can always tell when things aren’t going right or when I’m not at my best, it’s because I’ve stopped training or something’s got in the way. It’s the thing that I’ve now made kind of a deal breaker. I need to train, and I need to go to the gym four times a week.

And actually, it’s got very little to do with my physical fitness. It’s much more to do around my mental state. It’s my time, and there’s nothing like trying to push a sled on a rubber mat that will switch your brain off. Like at that point, you’ve got to stop thinking about whatever you’re thinking about. You’ve got a challenge and you’ve gotta deliver against it.

And so, I know you are the same, and I know that you are into your jiu jitsu, but like it’s those sorts of physical activities that I think shift your thinking and give you a space to switch off.

Chris: The reason certainly for me, I train is not the physical element of it, it is the mental side. Like if you’ve got a couple of good sessions in the week and you feel good about yourself, or even throughout a day, you’ve got it done.

I’m definitely a morning workout type person because you get it done, it gives you that high throughout the rest of the day. And that is so powerful. You couple that with the fact that we’re forced to be away from phones, forced to be totally in the moment and totally present …

Coming back to that work-life balance and when you’re totally obsessed with something, it can be a challenge to be present with things that aren’t that. And that’s the bit that is just a challenge for people.

Like you are obsessed with something else that is your business, that is the main thing in your life at that point from a work perspective, and it does take over. But as you say, that’s what you need for that kind of unreasonable expectation that you’re trying to hit.

Vish: Yeah, it is interesting, we don’t look at a sports star or an Olympic athlete and go, “Oh, they’re being unreasonable because the amount of training and the commitment they need to provide in order to deliver against it is insane.”

And so, it’s exactly the same thing building a business, I think it requires that level of commitment.

Chris: I’ve never had it said in that way. Like as you say, like the footballers, whoever; the boxes, they’re going to camps before fights, they’re going to like everything, and their whole world is taken over by this.

Yet, from a business perspective, if someone goes to maybe that extreme, people then kind of go, “Yeah, that’s too far.” That’s a really interesting moment.

So, thinking about that, if you could kind of give our listeners a key piece of advice or two from your journey, what would it be and why?

Vish: The one that I tend to live by is ‘live in the grey’. I think we’re brought up in the world which sees a lot of wrong and right, rich or poor, good and bad. And I just think when you have that mindset, you become massively constrained by what you can do.

Whereas, the reality is everything is in the middle. There is no black or white. You want to start a new business or stay in your existing job, that’s not a binary decision. There are ways to kind of experiment and try and see if that’s what you love doing. That’s the point.

So, for me, it’s all about don’t always live in this binary mindset, which I think society has you think about, and figure out what’s really important to you and find the balance in those decisions, and do it for the right reasons. Do it because that’s what you care about.

And guess what, that’s where I think the best thinking comes from. That’s where I think the best ideas come from. If you think about Until, Until came from an environment where a practitioner goes, “Well, either I can get a job or I can go and take loads of risk and start my own space, and spend all the money and become a business owner.”

Guess what? We’re a combination of the two, and I guess it’s that thinking that kind of got us here.

Chris: It’s an interesting one. I think there’s quite a few businesses. Then again, probably Uncommon, it’s the same thing.

Actually, where it sits in what seems to be in your definition the grey, where it’s providing a more relaxed way or a flexible way of interacting with say, the office market in my case.

But actually, there must be a lot of very successful businesses that are there to exist in that grey point. Interesting.

A side question: in this grey space, how do you make these decisions? Is there something that you live by?

Vish: Yeah, everyone talks about different decision-making tools or principles. I mean, look, there’s easy decisions and there are hard decisions. There’s easy decisions, which they give you the direction.

I think the other easy decisions are the ones which you can change. No point spending ages trying to decide between two options when actually, if one doesn’t work, you can just default to the other one.

I think the harder decisions are the ones where they’re literally 49, 51. I think Obama talked about it. A lot of the most important decisions are that close. All you can do is get as much information as you can and then trust your gut.

And then after that, control the controllables. Because once you’ve made a call, you’ve got to get behind it and execute. And sometimes, it’ll be right, and sometimes it’ll be wrong. And all you can do in that scenario is control what you can control, and the rest will be what it’ll be.

And I think that’s where people get really lost, is they’re trying to control other people, trying to control how other people are going to react, what other businesses are going to do. I mean, you just can’t.

All you can control is what you have in front of you and what you do. And so, once you’ve made a decision, as long as you’re doing that, then nothing else to worry about. But yeah, I mean, it doesn’t really answer your question on how, but it’s a philosophy that we’re continuing to operate in our business.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, at that point, I can very much imagine you saying to your own team, “Look, this is where we are, this is the information. What decision do you want to make?”

And I’m constantly doing this with the team saying, “Look, are you 51% sure? If you’re 51% sure, go for it.” Like the issue I have is more when people don’t make a decision, and that costs you far more often than trying to get to a hundred percentage which doesn’t exist.

Hence, why I’m linking it back in the grey point. You’re probably going to be in the grey all the way through until a hundred percent. And by that stage, you’ve taken so long to get there that actually, your questions have gone away and it’s something else.

Vish: It’s so true. And I think we spend so much time trying to figure out how to make the best decision and it’s about pace. It’s why smaller businesses move much more quickly. They’re much more nimble because they’re able to make decisions and move.

Whereas, naturally, what happens as you grow an organisation, there’s more layers, there’s more people in the decisions, and I think you’re bang on. Like stay nimble, take a call and get cracking.

Chris: Very good advice, I think. Do you think you’ll ever go back to a big company?

Vish: If I’m honest, Chris, I can’t imagine it. I think I’d find it pretty challenging to work in that sort of environment. But yeah, never say never. If I could find a business that had a purpose that I could be super passionate about and they could provide me opportunities that I couldn’t get outside, then sure, you’d have to look at it.

I’m hoping that Until at some point, it will become a big business, and so that will be the business that I continue to work with. But yeah, time will tell.

Chris: Talking about accountability, it’s kind of an interesting thing now. How do you kind of treat yourself and the team and kind of the business overall? I know it’s an important thing to you being accountable, so do you want to just elaborate a little bit more on that?

Vish: One of the things that I think is really important is accountability. I mean, if I think about my personal trainer and kind of the impact he’s had on my life, sure, he brings tons of knowledge and experience, but really, what he’s doing is holding me accountable.

At the end of the day, it’s really easy to not get up in the morning and just go, “I’ll go later,” and then guess what? Later never comes. It’s really easy at lunchtime, make the wrong choice and eat the Snickers bar instead of actually the healthy salad.

And I think the role he’s played in helping me really focus on my health and wellness is by … I know he’s given me a plan and I know I’ll let him down if I don’t deliver. And I think Until, one of the things that we want to be doing for our members is holding them to account because starting a business is really hard as a freelance practitioner.

Social media’s a great example. Everyone knows that to get the impact in social media, you need to consistently be posting and you need to be consistently engaging. But sometimes, it’s just easier not to.

And I think one of the things that we’ve seen a real impact in, is just holding some of our members to account, setting a plan, checking with them where they are on that plan. And I think we all need it. We all need it.

And as businesses, we need to support our employees and I think giving them accountability, making sure they do what they say they do will force them to develop and grow.

Chris: Is there any kind of, I guess, tips that you have on doing that with your team? Is there anything specific you do? Are there any kind of systems you follow?

Vish: Sounds terrible. We have something in our business called Accountability Club. It’s essentially, you get together twice a week and work on something that you’re not very good at consistently executing, and using peer pressure and hopefully, friendly heckling to get you to do your bit.

I mean, we have a pretty competitive culture, and so no one wants to be seen to be letting themselves down. And so, yeah, there’s that. The accountability club has been a pretty effective way of kind of holding each other to account.

But you hear it all the time. People have WhatsApp groups with their friends around going to the gym, go to the gym, post a picture, okay. And if you don’t do it, then you’re going to be the last one out.

I was talking to someone last week who said to me, they’ve got a WhatsApp group which has 10 people on it, and every month, the worst performer gets dropped and another one comes in. And so, that’s pretty strong accountability, you want to be part of a social group. I mean, it sounds pretty brutal too, but it works.

Chris: So, from a business point of view, you’ve been involved in quite a few other startups, you’ve kind of mentioned some of them. What are the kinds of the learnings you’ve had from them? Like how have they kind of shaped you?

Vish: Look, one of my own personal learnings frankly going through that journey of investing in businesses, was I used to have this point of view that capacity was a state of mind. That as individuals, we set the bar on how much we can do at one time.

And I kept layering it on and doing more and investing in businesses, and starting new ones. And I quite liked that kind of brand I had of, “Oh, Vish has got fingers in 10 different pies” and that was great until it wasn’t.

And I got to the stage where I learned capacity is not a state of mind, there is a real capacity. And actually, over the last five years, the thing I’ve learned the most is the importance of focus. And it’s the thing that when I’m working with a new founder or an early-stage team, or frankly, my own team — focus, focus, focus.

And so, today, I tend to say no to most things. Until is my priority. I don’t have five different businesses on the go because I find that if you don’t have total focus on one thing, you just don’t have the head space to be successful.

And so, those are the two things that I probably learned in my investing journey, and it’s probably the two things I look for when I’m investing in a business. One is the people, and are they connected to what they’re doing? And secondly, how focused are they?

Because when you get an entrepreneur who is trying to do 10 different things in the market, their job becomes infinitely harder because someone will do each one of those 10 jobs better.

Chris: And I think that links massively into your accountability point, like having just that clarity, that kind of focused, just being very clear, just kind of breeds good results.

So, if I think about your longer-term horizon for Vish, what does it look like? Like what’s the kind of legacy that you think you’ll leave behind?

Vish: I’ve thought about this a lot because lots of people talk about legacy Chris, and I guess I’m not quite yet at the stage where I’m really, really thinking about legacy.

At the moment, it’s really about Until, building a platform that transforms an industry and unlocking practitioners across the world. But I don’t think about it as a legacy versus a journey that I’m on. I’m way less motivated by legacy.

For me, it’s all about what can I deliver now? What can I create out in the world that changes people’s lives today? It’s never been something that I’ve really connected with, and I’ve thought long and hard about it, if I’m honest. And yeah, it’s not a thing.

Chris: Your legacy will be what it will be if you carry on with that focus of kind of unlocking people’s potential. It’s very simple. If that’s your focus, that is very clear throughout the business and you, the rest kind of definitely takes care of itself.

Vish: It’s interesting just you saying that has made me just reflect a bit. And in a post-Until world, I’d love to see members of my team going and starting their own things, building their own businesses, taking the learnings that they’ve had from the journey that we’ve been on, and applying that in their own kind of specialty or passion.

Like that’s what I’m excited to see. So yeah, I mean I guess that’s a legacy of some sort for sure.

Chris: So, the little tradition that we have here is about books on our bookshelf. So, do you have a book that you can leave on the Uncommon bookshelf? It is an actual bookshelf we have now and it’s been filling up nicely. What book are you going to leave and why?

Vish: I’ve got two, I know that’s cheating.

Chris: That’s fine, that’s fine. We’ve got plenty of space.

Vish: So, The Chimp Paradox, I don’t know if this is on your bookshelf already, but like for me, like self-awareness, mindset is critical. It has been so fundamental to me learning about myself and what’s important, and why I do what I do, and recognizing what part of my brain is driving my decision-making.

And I think it was a fantastic book in kind of making that real and bringing that to life. And I think it’s one I’ve recommended to my team. And so, definitely, one that if you are navigating kind of a step up in your career or trying to figure out what’s next or frankly, having a tough time trying to navigate a particular situation. Like just reading it and thinking about it through those lenses is awesome.

And the second one’s a bit of a plug because if I didn’t share it, I think Alex would be a bit disappointed. But my co-founder has written a book called The Idea in You. And the podcast is all about possibility and actually, we talked a lot about ?What If! and kind of how we think about businesses and the methodology we use to come up with Until.

And he’s written a bestselling book around how you do that, and I think everyone has an incredible business idea in them. And so, if you think you’ve got one brimming, then definitely, buy that book and have a quick read and it’ll give you the tools that you need to get going.

Chris: Amazing. I will look forward to reading Alex’s book. I’ve read the other one, the other one just has so many useful things in it that you kind of go, “That’s why people are reacting in that way. That’s something that I need to think about from a personal point of view.”

So, I can see exactly why you said that, and well, look, the Until business is going very well, so Alex must have some sensible things to say in there.

Vish: Yeah, let’s hope it continues.

Chris: I guess lastly, it’s just left to me to say thank you very much. It’s been lovely chatting to you, and can you just tell me where people can find Until, where they can find you a bit more around, that type of thing.

Vish: At the moment, if you have any health and wellness needs or are looking for the right practitioner, you can go to our website, until.co.uk. If you’re a practitioner, absolutely submit a membership application. But if you’re just looking for someone, there’s a place to do that, and then we’ll come back to you with some of our brilliant members.

And then for me, LinkedIn is probably a great place to find me and shoot me a note if you’ve got any questions.

Chris: Wonderful, thank you very much, Vish.

Vish: Thanks, Chris. Appreciate the moment.

[Music Playing]

Chris: I’ve got three takeaways from that episode. The first being, how Vish has been very focused on his purpose.

You can see that come through and how aligned it is with the starting of Until, and how that focus of unlocking potential in not just himself, but the rest of his team, and then the actual members that they serve, means that it’s such an aligned business. And you can kind of really see and sense that.

The second is how he’s very self-aware, that his mindset has shifted over the kind of a 15-year period, and understanding that he’s now doing things for much better reasons than he was when he was slightly younger. And it’s kind of an interesting point that I think a lot of us probably go through, but I think labelling, that’s a very helpful thing.

And the third one really, is around kind of accountability and the clarity that he tries to apply in each area of the business, and I guess for himself personally, whether that is in the gym, being accountable to showing up and kind of putting your best efforts in, all the way through to the way the actual business works.

I hope listening to this story has inspired you. And if you haven’t already, follow Alive With Possibilities wherever you get your podcasts, as there are different learnings in each and every episode.